It’s the penultimate installment of February Foreign Films, and for this one, I had to bring in a little help.

Real talk. Portrait of a Lady on Fire was so good that I couldn’t just talk about it alone. So I brought in my good friend and yours Kelli to chat about this excellent film about art, love, feminism, the Orpheus myth, and a whole lot more.

Because we couldn’t help ourselves, spoilers to follow. Please go see this movie. Then come back and join the conversation.

Kelli: Portrait of a Lady on Fire is a French film written and directed by Céline Sciamma (one of many female-directed films that were ignored at this year's Academy Awards). The film is set in 18th century France and follows Marianne, a painter, who is tasked to paint Héloïse, a woman who is engaged to marry a nobleman and who, thus far, has REFUSED to pose for a painter. Because of this, Marianne has to try her best to paint Héloïse in secret. Romance ensues.

Emily: Yes. Why do you think this didn't get nominated for anything? I thought that was so weird because this movie has been getting so much buzz.

Kelli: Lesbians?

Emily: I just looked up The Handmaiden, another foreign film featuring a lesbian relationship that was a REALLY GOOD movie. And it didn’t get nominated its year. So that checks out.

Kelli: I think The Handmaiden had even less of a chance because obviously there's a racial element there as well. But this is a French film, and SO many French films have not only been nominated for best foreign feature but have even crossed over into the other categories. Which just makes me believe even more that this was ignored because it is a story about lesbians.

It's interesting because at these award shows in the last couple of years we've seen great success for films about gay men (Moonlight, Call Me By Your Name), but as with many female-focused things, lesbian movies are routinely ignored.

Emily: Well, this might be a controversial opinion, but I think homosexual male relationships are more romanticized in pop culture than lesbian relationships. Gay men are "fabulous" and know how to dress and are fun and cool (this is also a problematic generalization) and lesbians are angry man haters who wear overalls and flannel.

Kelli: And we are always expected and encouraged to empathize with male-focused stories, but stories about women are seen as somehow inaccessible. So when it's a story about a woman LOVING another WOMAN?

Emily: Yes. Men can't relate to women, for some reason. And if there's no man watching the women make out, then what's the point? If two lesbians make out alone in a cave and no man is there to see it, do they even make a sound?

Kelli: Yeah, that's another thing about this film. The presence of men is basically limited to extras during the few group scenes. Which was really cool tbh.

Emily: I loved it, but it also made me wonder... when the maid got pregnant, I was like, "THERE ARE MEN ON THIS ISLAND?" Because I'd never seen one.

Kelli: HAHA, right?

Emily: I was like wow literally when and how?

Kelli: In the secret room where they keep the men.

Emily: Love it. More movies like this where men don't talk please.

Kelli: What did you think about that side story, and about Sophie (the maid, played by Luàna Bajrami) as a character in relation to the two leads?

Emily: Okay so I did have a few feelings about Sophie. The shallow thing first. SHE WAS SO SHORT OMG! I was like who is this tiny person? I actually felt for Sophie a lot because at the beginning, when these three women are left alone in the house, it's like they have this friendship going on. Hanging out, playing games, etc. And then at some point Sophie becomes the third wheel. And they're kind of like... sneaking around behind her back to make out and have sex.

Kelli: Hahaha, yes.

Emily: And I feel like we’ve all been that person before. There’s always that moment where you’re like, “We’re such great friends! I’m having so much fun! Oh wait a minute… y’all are having sex.”

Kelli: Let’s talk about LE ART. (Get it? This is French.)

Emily: Oui.

Kelli: We've talked before about how annoying it is when we're supposed to believe that a person is an amazing artist/musician/etc and then we see (or read about) their art and it’s trash. I really loved all of the scenes in this movie that showed Marianne working through her process. It's clear that she is a good artist because we see the final product, obviously, but we also get to see her actually working on things - and we get to see her fail, which is another important part of the artistic process that isn't always highlighted.

Emily: Yes, I thought the way art was represented in this movie was really thoughtful. I love how the first scene in the movie is just a quiet close up of sketching, and all you can hear are the light strokes on the canvas.

Kelli: Yes - and all the different hands of the different students. One of my favorite things about taking art classes where we'd sketch the same subject was seeing how every person had their own interpretation of what we were drawing. Which I think lends itself to what this film is saying about the subjectivity of art — like, Marianne's first portrait of Héloïse is a failure because she doesn't know Héloïse well enough yet to paint her accurately.

Emily: Yes.

Kelli: It looks like her physically, but the expression is all wrong.

Emily: And you can really see that in the paintings. It's fascinating that they were able to capture that. Like whoever painted those paintings for them did a great job of capturing two very different images of the same person. We should really look up the artist who did these paintings… Hélène Delmaire. Here’s a link to her Instagram.

Kelli: Apparently she painted 16 hours every day during the course of filming, and her hands were also featured in the film.

Emily: She did great, y’all. One more thing I want to say about the art. At the end, when Marianne talks about the first time she saw Héloïse again, I was definitely expecting her to see Héloïse in person. But the "first time she sees Héloïse again" is actually in a painting. My immediate reaction was, “Does this count as seeing her again? It’s just a painting.” But I think it sort of tells us a lot about how Marianne views art. That she felt like she was truly seeing Héloïse.

Kelli: Yes. I think it counted to her especially because of the little easter egg, if you will, in that painting.

Emily: Ugh this is so romantic. Before they part ways, Marianne draws Héloïse a sketch of herself in her book. And in the painting, Héloïse has her finger on the page where Marianne's sketch is. I was like LOVE IS REAL.

Kelli: This is a good way to transition into talking about the romance itself. I was surprised by how long it took for these two to actually get physical with each other! But I loved it, because that kind of tension is obviously important.

Emily: Yes. There are so many moments where you want to scream, “OMG JUST KISS HER!”

Kelli: Yes. And later, when they're together and they only have a few days left, one of them (I think Héloïse?) says "I wasted time," and Marianne says "I wasted time too." And that BROKE MY HEART. I think anyone who has had a romance with a known time limit can relate to that feeling. Like, how long did I know this person and have these feelings before I did something about it? We know from the first scene in the movie that they won't end up together, and the two of them also know it the whole time, because there is a clear expiration date. It looms over the entire film, and it also clearly haunts both of them - Marianne keeps seeing visions of Héloïse in her wedding dress.

Emily: It was also interesting to see how many freedoms Marianne had compared to Héloïse and how that affected their relationship. Marianne has experienced so much of the world and doesn't feel like she will be pressured to marry ever. Héloïse doesn't have that option. She will experience the world once she’s married.

Kelli: Right. Marianne is lucky that she's been given the opportunity to support herself - and even though there are limitations to what she can do as a female artist, she still is able to make her own way in the world. Which is, of course, because she is the daughter of a male artist who paved the way for her.

Emily: Right. And we see at the end some of those limitations, because she puts her art out in the world under her father's name. Because otherwise her work would not be shown or if it did it wouldn't get the same attention.

Kelli: Yuuup. And SO MANY female artists have been erased by history in this way.

Emily: I want to talk about the Orpheus myth.

Kelli: Yes!

Emily: So at some point during the time the three women are alone together, they read the Orpheus myth and discuss it, which, as a literature person, I THOROUGHLY enjoyed. The majority of their discussion is about WHY Orpheus looks back at Eurydice.

Kelli: Same, I was glad I knew about that myth beforehand lol.

Emily: Meanwhile I was like, “How is this the first time they’re hearing this story? Everyone knows this!”

Kelli: Haha.

Emily: Whatever the case, we've discussed this story on the podcast before. I said it was my favorite myth. I just love a good tragic love story. How does this myth inform the love story in this movie?

Kelli: Well it's interesting, because really, Orpheus and Eurydice DO have a chance at staying together and Orpheus fucks it up. But here, there is already pretty much no world in which Marianne and Héloïse will be able to have a relationship. I think that in the final moments they share together, Marianne is trying to leave without having too emotional a goodbye, but Héloïse tells her to look back and she's forced to finally see Héloïse in the dress.

Emily: Do you think that changes anything, seeing her in the dress?

Kelli: I think that for Marianne, it just reinforces what she already knew but didn't really want to believe, which was that Héloïse was going to end up marrying this man she doesn't love, forced into a life she doesn't want — and Marianne can only look back at her because there's nothing she can do to stop it from happening. Like Eurydice dragged into Hell.

Emily: I thought about the very final scene in terms of Orpheus as well. So the final scene is Marianne describing the last time she ever saw Héloïse. It's at an orchestra performance, and the orchestra starts to play the same song that Marianne played for her earlier in the movie. The Presto movement from the "Summer" section of Vivialdi's "The Four Seasons." We spend a really long time on Héloïse's face as she takes in the music and begins to cry. And I found myself wondering if she was ever going to see Marianne watching her. Because clearly we are seeing this from Marianne's perspective. Marianne is watching Héloïse be moved by the music rather than watching the performance.

And so much about this movie is about watching and perceiving and looking.

Emily: There's a moment earlier in the movie where Héloïse points out that while Marianne is painting her and studying her, she is also studying Marianne. Because of that, I kept wondering if Héloïse was going to look at Marianne, but she never does. And it made me think of Orpheus. Rather than looking back at Marianne, Héloïse never looks at her in this moment. Is this in an attempt to spare her from the world that Héloïse has found herself in? To save Marianne in some way? Or am I reading too much into this?

Kelli: I don't think you're reading too much into this! I think this is one of those films where every small moment is very intentional, and I really love that reading of it.

Emily: I feel like you could also just read it as "Oh, she’s moved by the music that reminds her of her lost love.” But if that’s all it is, why linger on her face for so long? It created this sense of anticipation and I wondered if she was going to look. It made me ask, “Is she going to look?” Which made me think of Orpheus.

Kelli: Oh, absolutely. I think that moment was very much tied to the myth. I think that ending works for so many reasons, and part of what I love about it is that we learn early on that Héloïse has never been to the orchestra. So we see her hearing this music that reminds her of a lost love, yes — but also experiencing the power of the music itself, which she never got to hear when she was younger and isolated. And we know that she has this life that she never wanted, but it's almost this hopeful moment where she can still take pleasure in something beautiful. Which ties back into everything this movie wants us to think about art and its importance.

Emily: Was this a perfect movie?

Kelli: To me? Kind of.

Emily: Same.

Kelli: I’m so glad you loved it as much as I did.

Emily: I gave it five stars on Letterboxd.

Kelli: Five flame icons.

Emily: Yes. Everyone should go see this movie.

Kelli: Also, I just want to shout out to Noémie Merlant as Marianne and Adèle Haenel as Héloïse, who both gave beautiful performances. We didn't talk that much about the acting in this film but it's excellent.

Emily: Even though one of them LOOKS LIKE HERMIONE.

Kelli: SHE SO DOES. And also a little like Shailene Woodley?

Emily: No don’t say it.

Kelli: But yeah, I agree. Everyone please see this movie. It is so beautiful in so many ways.